Crafting Your Podcast Pitch with Cher Hale

Tara Newman: Hey, hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of The Bold Leadership Revolution podcast. I am so excited today to have Cher Hale with us. Cher is one of the founding members of The BRAVE Society and Cher is responsible for publicity and public relations. One of the reasons why I asked Cher to be a founding member was because I think that more women need to get their voices and their messages out into the world. There's lots of ways that we can do that, but one really powerful way to do that is by leveraging publicity and public relations. So welcome Cher.

Cher Hale: Thank you for having me on. I'm looking forward to demystifying PR.

Tara Newman: Yeah, me too. And actually I have to say this, Cher writes the best pitches. So we're going to talk a little bit about pitching. I know that there are some people out there who call themselves the pitch queen, but I disagree. I think that Cher is the pitch queen. And I was actually talking to somebody the other day and they were talking to me about this amazing pitch that they got and I was like, oh, Cher pitched you. And like how do you know? And I'm like, because you just have this way about you that is so warm and inviting. And so first tell people what you do and then we'll talk about pitching.

Cher Hale: So as you might've guessed, I'm a publicist, but not just any publicist. I specialize in publicity for experts, entrepreneurs and authors. So anybody who's in the thought leadership space, like Tara, like many of the members in The BRAVE Society, I help them take their message and make it interesting and attractive for the media to cover in different capacities from podcasts to features to Q and. A. All the way back around to webinars and speaking engagements.

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Tara Newman: All right, so let's talk about pitching, because I've struggled with pitching. I've struggled with pitching so bad when somebody said to me, one way to get publicity is to pitch yourself for podcasts or just start your own. So instead of pitching podcasts, I was more comfortable going through all the effort, starting my own podcast. It's something that, the word itself was like a challenge for me. I've long since moved past this in a lot of respects, but I know a lot of women struggle. They say pitching feels masculine, they feel like pitching feels there's something about pitching or the word pitch that makes them feel like it's a pushy or aggressive in some way and is not at any capacity the way you have modeled pitching to me. So can we talk about it?

Cher Hale: Yeah, absolutely. I think you're right, the VC world has really taken pitching as thist masculine big briefcase thing to do, right? So for lots of us entrepreneurs who are much more heart centered and feminine, and introverted, it just feels out of alignment. But the truth in this situation, as it is in many other situations is that we can hone and mold the way that we pitched to be more like us to tell our stories and to be authentic and kind and generous and considerate. Which is what I think all of my pitches have a through line up a spine of is just being really helpful and kind.

So when I pitched you way back in the day.

Tara Newman: Like you were pitching me for one of your authors, right?

Cher Hale: I don't even remember who I've put you for? But I listened to your show. I liked it. I thought it was a good tone. It had a nice style and I thought you had probably a well engaged audience, which turned out to be true. People love you and I pitched you after listening to a few episodes, getting a feel for who you are, figuring out where my guest might fit in with your content. I think in the end it didn't work out. But look where we are now, which I think is the power of PR. It's not just about getting the placement for the person at the right time, but really seeing where in the longterm what the relationship that first connection could turn into because we have done so much together since then, it's insane.

Tara Newman: Yeah. So let me unravel this few cause this is actually quite interesting. So when you pitched me, the reason why I was a no for the person is cause this is not really an interview podcast. This is a solo podcast. And because I reserve my interview times or spots for members of my community to give them a platform to lean on and to really hold them up. Now sometimes I come across somebody who's message is so outrageous that I need to include them on the podcast. But that's very few and far between. The person you were pitching me on was Dr Michelle Mazer.

Cher Hale: Oh yes. Oh my gosh.

Tara Newman: Who wound up joining The BRAVE Society and coming on my podcast as a member of The BRAVE Society because I wanted to help her get her message out and she was launching her book. We wound up getting there anyway.

But what happened from your pitch to me from Michelle, I was like, wait, Cher. Like I think I want to work with you. I would love for you to send pitches like this on my behalf because they did feel so authentic. They did feel so aligned with my values and my brand and I personally really like having an objective third party pitch for me because it just happens so much faster. It gets me out of my, like any kind of fear or anything that might bubble up for me around me not doing it right. It's just easy for me to offload that to you, to somebody who I really trust. So that is how that came about, which I love.

Cher Hale: Yeah. Hilarious that you eventually did have her on because to this point this example is perfect. It might not be the right time, but a no in the moment is not a no forever. You can always re-pitch with a new angle. And what I think is most important is people might say no in the beginning but they don't forget how you make them feel when you pitch them. That's the point I love bringing home is you're building, you're in this for the long run to build a connection. So treat this person like you would treat someone brand new that you're meeting like a friend that you're trying to cultivate. Be nice to them, be kind be considerate, be helpful because it's not just about what you're getting out of the potential transaction, but really about this long term relationship which we have seen to this point.

Tara Newman: I think that's really fascinating because even like when I think about selling, right? And when you sell, I never expect to make the sale on the first time I meet somebody. I always expect there to be, I mean research tells us there's usually seven touch points, right? And I can imagine the same is true, maybe not seven on all of them. But there is a number of touch points that need to happen with somebody if you really want to be featured on their podcasts or in their news outlet or something like that.

Cher Hale: I mean back in the day when I was a total newbie in PR and I was learning how to do it from like templates my internship director gave me, I remember being so uncomfortable with the idea of following up with people. Feeling like, I'm annoying, I'm a pest, I don't want to do this. And if I didn't hear it, absolutely no, I had to keep following up. That was the rule with the person I learned from. So there was actually this show in Vegas, like a local TV morning show called Wake Up with the Wagners and the producer at the time said maybe to me about, you know, putting her on the morning show. So I said, okay, have some, maybe I have to follow up like this is so annoying. I don't want to be, I don't want to be annoying. But I got over myself and continued to follow up until the point where she was like, you know what? We're going to do this. This is a fit. You know, there's a way to be persistent without being pushy. And it all starts with having that conversation and really making it less about the pitch and more about opening a dialogue, which is what I, I tried to do in all my pitches is open a dialogue first to create that connection.

Tara Newman: I want to just recap what you said because I think you gave so many great opportunities here. So open the dialogue, start the relationship, right? I think a lot of people take themselves out in the pitching place because they expected immediate results. So what you're saying is hang tight, be persistent. You're also saying be kind right, and look at how you can add value. What is it in this for the person and not necessarily for you. How can you both win in this relationship and as long as you don't hear no, keep asking.

Cher Hale: Sometimes if you hear a no and you re-pitch a year later with the right angle, it could be a yes. And like I like to say a no to a pitch is never a no to a relationship so really keep the relationship in the forefront of your mind.

Tara Newman: That's a great perspective because I think again, I think people very much take it personally when they hear no and it's not persona. When people pitch me for my podcasts, I don't always do interview episodes. It's very few and far between. I save that for my community or maybe for example, podcasters are booking their content out so far, like they do a one show a week that's only 52 episodes a year and some are interview and some are solo episodes. Like that's not a lot of opportunities to get on that one show, but pitching at another time could get you on this show.

Cher Hale: Podcast pitching, like we've been saying for awhile is the new guest posting, it's a big trend that's happening right now that everyone's still need to do it to get visibility for your business and it works. It really does work. But to your point, competition is really intense right now and it's made me reevaluate how I pitched too. So since I pitched you like two years ago, my pitching style has changed entirely for podcasts because I was noticing, so like industry average a year ago or two years ago, it used to be 20% conversion rate from a pitch to a booking. Now it's more like 14-15% it's gotten a lot lower, but I'm finding that if I change my pitch style, I can get up put like 24% which is insane right now. And that all starts with saying one simple, beautiful question, which is, "Hey, are you even considering guests?" It saves you so much time. It comes from a place of consideration and then you have a chance to introduce yourself and say who you are. It really does open the space.

Tara Newman: Oh my goodness. Like, I'm just like, I'm sitting here, you can't see me but my mouth just dropped open when Cher said that. I was like, wait, what? Oh my God. Brilliant. So your first pitch is like your first contact with them is, "Are you accepting guests?"

Cher Hale: Yeah. And you know what? Even if I hear a "no we're not considering guests", I still hear a no. Which in the PR world is huge to get a response at all. So I'm finding that even if I hear no, I still have an 18% chance of having a conversation at all. So I'm up here like around 40% that I'm going to get a reply back, which I think is monumental right now in the podcasting space because I'm saying, "Hey, I listened to your show. Here's what I thought of it. Are you considering guests? I have a good idea for a guest. Here's a little bit about her, like one or two lines, max. Thanks for your time either way." And that has changed my business entirely. The pitching, my clients get so many more bookings from that seven sentence pitch.

Tara Newman: Love how analytical you got.

Cher Hale: Oh my God. So analytical.

Tara Newman: I know, I know. I really love that about you, but yeah, it's like you're analytical but you're also very balanced with the other stuff. Like you're balanced, you're not, you don't only speak in quantitative data like you can be in the qualitative data too, which I really appreciate about you. I have a question because I think that some people aren't always clear about what publicity is and how it can help them and maybe start by saying like what's publicity versus what's marketing? What's the difference?

Cher Hale: We have three kinds of media. We have owned media, which is like your blog, your podcast, your Instagram feed. This is all stuff that you own yourself, that you create on your own. You have paid media. So that's like Facebook ads, billboards, magazine ads, stuff like that. And you have earned media, which is the stuff that you earn put very succinctly. People say, yes, you are enough of an expert to earn this spot for free in our big outlet, our big podcast or whatever, you've earned your right to be here. It's very much what PR is. So if you pitch the right story at the right time with the right expert and you earn that spot. Then that feature or Q and A or interview could potentially turn into business for you. So like more eyeballs on your work, more opt-ins to your email lists, more one on one clients, more books sold, whatever your success metric is for like doing PR in the beginning is what you can strategically and intentionally craft your PR pipeline to arrive at.

Tara Newman: Yeah. So you started talking some about like the results that people could get. So for me personally, podcasts always work really well for me in terms of new leads. So there are people who find me through podcasts and they come and they follow me on social media or they start listening to my podcast and now at least they're in my pipeline where I have the opportunity to build that relationship and nurture them to potentially become a client. That always has worked really well for me. And then what I liked about getting some media opportunities that you helped me get Money magazine and Yahoo Finance, that now gets me potentially more media.

That's why I specifically went for that. I think people have this belief that they're going to write one like guest expert post on a big outlet and all of a sudden like their list is going to jump like by a thousand people and they're going to be skyrocketed into some kind of viral success. And I don't know, you can speak to this more probably intelligently, but that's not something that I've necessarily seen. But what that has allowed me to do and why that was important to me was because that allows me now to go after more and bigger media opportunities.

Cher Hale: Yeah. You have to be very realistic about your expectations. I do a lot of education around what PR can potentially bring before I take on any clients, because you can want to build reputation and clout as your number one PR like end game and so getting the logo could be like your first milestone but it's just that it's a milestone. It's a stepping stone. You get the logo and then you can say, okay, now that I have this logo, how can I leverage it and so much a PR. 

This is where PR and marketing kind of, it gets messy where the lines are because leveraging PR is a lot of marketing. How can you continue to use this in your bio and your social media, like whatever you create to reference back to being quoted as an expert to be perceived as expert. Then two like you said, how can that build, how can you build momentum with what you've already gotten? Because when your money piece went live, it was syndicated to two other big outlets. And I had two or three smaller outlets reach out and say, Hey, I want to talk to her too. And that's the kind of momentum it can bring. And then you can leverage that kind of clout to get bigger paying, higher paying clients, bigger speaking engagements, just having a bigger platform overall to say, Hey, I've been here, here and here and this is why I deserve to also be here or why it is already paid this much more.

Tara Newman: For me personally, it was about starting to build that credibility to get into other areas. But as well as knowing that in 2020 for me that I was going to be looking to do some speaking and I wanted to be able to put some credibility on my speaker one sheet. So this was very intentionally done way in advance. It wasn't like I didn't wait for 2020 to come when I knew I wanted to be doing these speaking gigs. I reached out to you in 2019, I think that that's also important to note is that there is a lead time for publicity.

Tara Newman: First I just want to go back and I want to say that one of my deciding factors to get publicity when I did was that I had my marketing strategy in place. So people who I think, I think in terms of timing as to when people should be seeking PR is also a really important conversation because otherwise it can be super frustrating for both parties. And I see a lot of business owners kind of doing things to build their business out of order and like going hardcore on investing in publicity before you have maybe invested in a marketing system. It could be a real waste of money for you because I think they work very much in tandem.

Cher Hale: Absolutely. And I would say, this differs for every person, every case by case basis. But overall you want to have your like systems and your marketing house in order. Because let's say that the best does happen and you get like a hundred people coming in from, you know, one mention by an influencer and they have, you have no opt-in form to capture them and you have no real indication of what you're offering or selling and then they just disappear off into the wind. All your efforts are wasted. 

Talk to Stacey Harris and get your marketing house in order. And before that talking to like Dr. Michelle Mazer and making sure that you have your messaging. Make sure you're clear and that you know what you're selling and what you're offering and what makes you different in this space. Because honestly, I turn down a lot, a lot of clients who want to work with me who don't have anything interesting to say. It's all been said before. There's nothing that sets them apart in the, in this space. And when that happens, I can't do anything for you because the media wants to see new and different. They want divisive opinions. They want you to have a stance and if you don't, you can't. There's no reason to feature you, which is an unfortunate truth, but the truth none the less.

Tara Newman: I mean that's really where you have to work on just telling your own story. I mean, nothing anybody says is unique or different these days, but if you wrap it around a personal story or an insight that's maybe more, you said divisive or divergent from what people, you have to really be willing to be bold and stand out. I think if you want to get media, and I think that's probably one of the things that holds people back is that fear of standing out. The other thing that we had lined up that helped when we were working with you just tip for anybody else is that we knew where we were funneling people to. This was intentionally done because we wanted to get some traffic and eyeballs around The BRAVE Society. So I felt very comfortable making this investment knowing that there was a focus for putting the traffic or that when people came and found me that they would be steered in a specific direction.

Cher Hale: Absolutely. And I think you made a great point earlier about thinking intentionally but well before you need the eyeballs in your work. Because you were planning this a year in advance. Authors, if you have a book that you're trying to sell, you need to plan at least six to nine months in advance because even if you want to get on a website they still might have a two to three month lead time where they need the idea and then you won't see your idea featured from March until July. So be really thinking about how you can plan around what they needed when they need it.

Tara Newman: I think that people don't realize how much planning needs to happen. I have to say like I don't, and I mean I get it because I didn't really think about it either until I had a reason to desire having some publicity. But I think that people really struggle to figure out when the best time is for them and like what's the intention behind it. And I think that's something that you do really well in your process is set clear goals and have a clear plan.

Cher Hale: Yeah. And every time, you know, this is like my systems nerdy side of me, every client I get a little bit more efficient, I get a little bit better and a little more clear. So I'm finding that overall, the rule really is the more minuscule you can get with the tasks you have to do, the better you'll be overall.

Tara Newman: Yeah. I also think for you or for anybody really seeking publicity, I think building a longterm relationship with somebody is really important. So like that's just something that I've noticed through working with you is that the longer we work together, the more value there is. I can even think when we were working together under contract, which we will again soon, that from the time we started to the time we wrapped, even like my messaging had changed a little bit in the direction that I was ready to like going in was shifting. Things move so quickly. So it's like now I'm like, oh wait, now I want to work on this. So like really having like a longer term commitment to working with somebody in this case I think is valuable as well. So people are considering PR like it's not really, it's like one of those things you have to really consider a long term.

Cher Hale: Yeah, I think a good example of this comes from one of my clients who like new the editorial director of Goop from school. Like so they had like a really basic like acquaintance relationship. But I told her let's pitch her because absolutely like for the podcast it just launched, this was like two years ago and something like that. And she said, okay, like I would definitely be on the Goop podcast, so it's a great fit. So we pitched her and she said it was a no, but she said, hey instead, could we do a Q and A on the website about people pleasing? So we did, it was a great feature and it landed her $50,000 in sales within like a two week span. So insane. But it was still a no to the podcast. So she like she won like feature wise, but she didn't end there.

She said, okay, now that my messaging has changed six, nine months later I can re-pitch her for the podcasts and see what happens. And so she did and it was a yes. So she flew to la like last month and recorded this amazing interview for Goop, which is insane, like the caliber of guests they're having right now. But because she said, okay, this is a long term game and I can shift my pitch with how I've shifted as a coach. So you have to be thinking, you know, you are always evolving like you said. So that can change. You know, you've pitched people a year ago repitch them with a new angle of who you are now and who knows what could happen.

Tara Newman: Yeah. You know, that really brings up for me the whole concept of going deep and not wide, right? Like really staying with some relationships and what it takes to really build them deeply and over the longterm versus the person who just like is like, oh, well. He said no to me. Right. And like, let's just keep going wider and wider and wider. I think that there's a lot of value in the tenacity of staying with something and staying with a relationship and not just being someone behind because they said no.

Cher Hale: So funny. Srinivas Rao who has the Unmistakable Creative podcast, which is a big podcast in our space. When I first pitched him, he said no to me, and I remember thinking, I mean, we were being, so number one, I was scared of pitching in the first place as I was like, he's a big person. Like he's influential. I don't wanna get this wrong. Pitched him. It was almost like within an within the hour a no. I was like, okay, well great. Since then I pitched him probably seven times more and every single time it's been a yes. Can you imagine if I had just said, you know what, he's not pitchable. He doesn't want my guests. They're not interesting enough. I'm not pitching them well enough. It's not a fit and let it go like it's insane and now Srinivas, we're like Internet friends and he says that I write the best pitches.

He literally calls me out on his like his contact page to read about my pitches before they pitch him, which is hilarious, the first pitch I sent him was an absolute no and now he says he jokes. He's like, you should teach publishers how to pitch podcasts because you're so good at it. I just think it's so funny that I could have let the no, deter me and that's what lots of people do. Everyone lets people take it personally and they don't try again and they miss out on what's possible.

Tara Newman: I guess the thing that I really want my listeners today to take away from this conversation is Cher is somebody to me who is really thoughtful. Are you introverted or you extroverted?

Cher Hale: Ambiverted.

Tara Newman: Cher is an ambivert. Right. She has sensitive energy. I'm just making my point. Right? Like she has an ambivert, she needs some time for herself. She is kind and compassionate and thoughtful and intentional. And she used the word heart centered. I didn't even use that. She chose to use the word heart centered. But do you identify with that heart centeredness?

Cher Hale: Absolutely. Yeah.

Tara Newman: She mentioned the words authentic and she is out there creating some of the most well known pitches that people have seen. I think I've seen anyone on your website, people giving you testimonials for being pitched to by you. Okay. So also Cher is young. I think I could be a mom. How old are you Cher?

Cher Hale: I am 28.

Tara Newman: Okay. Not Quite. I can't quite be your mom. But like close or. That would be, it would be, that'd be a little rough. But it'd be close. So I really want you to hear how Cher could be just like you.

And she's able to create these pitches and matter of fact it's exactly because she's these things because she has these characteristics that makes her pitches so notable. So anybody listening to this it's like, oh I'm so introverted, I'm shy, I'm, I've got sensitive energy. I don't like to be rejected. Like I'm heart centered. Like whatever your stuff is, I want you to know that it's not true that you too can create and craft a really intentional kind, thoughtful pitch. Yeah.

Cher Hale: And it gets easier. You know a lot of the people that I used to pitch I was so scared too. And now as I've gotten more confident in my abilities and what I have to offer, the caliber of podcasts has increased and you just keep asking and your capacity for rejection expands.

Tara Newman: Okay. Now I got a question. So tell me about like your resiliency practices for when you get rejected or especially like when you were first starting out and you were first getting rejected. Like what did that look like and what are your tools that get you through that?

Cher Hale: Oh depends on the day. I'm getting better every day. Some days where I'm like really strong. I see the no, I just look off my shoulder cause I know that I have 50 other podcasts to pitch. So I think maybe to that point is what helps is if you know that there's somewhere else to go still that you still have more to do that what that one note is in the end of the line.

Tara Newman: Yeah. Your life doesn't hang in the balance of a single no.

Cher Hale: Yeah. I mean a lot of it too. I think in a unique situation where if I don't pitch, I don't get paid. So I have to really like get over myself in my rejection and remember too that in my position I'm a buffer for my clients. So you don't have to hear a hundred nos. I have to on your behalf, but you could celebrate the one or two or three yeses that you get. So I find myself taking some comfort in that, that I can save my clients some of this emotional like fatigue from being rejected so much. Also that I've seen it time and time again how a no in January could be a yes in June even if it's a hard pass. 

So there's just so much potential for people to come back and change their minds. And there are some that I am disappointed. I really wanted that placement for our client. I have to tell myself, you know what, they have a job to do too. It wasn't the right time or the right person, but it could be in six months or it could be in a year and there's a longer gain here. There's a bigger vision at play and it wasn't the right one. So just keep trying. You know, you get a new angle, you need a story. And that helps me because there is so much rejection. I must hear, I must hear like at least 15 nos a day, which really build up over time.

Tara Newman: You know, I think when you're talking about you being the buffer and having like, and when you said like I do this, this is how I get paid, right? There's like some separation there between self and your work. And I think that that's something that we all need to do a better job at even for ourselves is that. I'm here as a representative of my work, not myself. My business is not me. Even though there's a piece of my business where I am a part of it as the brand, you know even if you have a personal brand, you're still not your brand in its entirety. Like you are a whole worthy human being regardless of what happens with your business, regardless of what happens with media for your business or any of those things. So thank you for pointing that out, to have that separation.

Cher Hale: Of course. And I think too, because we get so personal with our businesses, we think that if our message is rejected and that means it's inherently not good enough, which is what you're saying, right? It's like we have this like worthiness that's attached to our message and our business. And I think too, that is potentially dangerous for us, not only with our home, we sell ourselves forth in our existential crises that we might be having, but also it's dangerous because then we aren't willing to pivot our message as easily. We get really attached to it. In the media you have to be willing to change your mind and to change your message and to try new things. And if we're attached to it, we can't even see how it could pivot. 

I've had clients before, Tara, who for like the first three months of pitching I heard nothing. It was just dead silence. And so for me, like depressing until we decided, okay, you know, something has to change and this isn't working. We're not getting any traction. If we pivot our message this way will it work? And it was like almost within the week I had 10 new interview requests because we looked at what was happening cause I did it wasn't good enough for what she was trying to, you know the audiences you're trying to reach and changed it because we have that like detachment from the message.

Tara Newman: I think that's so important. I've just, you know, I'm looking right now in my business, whenever I go through like a growth cycle, which I've just been going through and I'm like, oh my gosh, somebody please pause the growth cycle. So, I can breathe and then I'll like pick the growth cycle back up again. So I'm like kind of in a pause and when I go into that pause I start to really declutter and to let go of things. And there's so much that we hold onto that we are personally attached to in our businesses that if we just released that attachment, our growth would come so much more effortlessly. You know, it's like we're trying to strangle hold and control the direction that we want things to go in. And sometimes they're just not controllable. PR is not controllable. We can't control what publications we get into when we get into them or anything. It's one of those pieces of our business that's like a journey.

Cher Hale: Yeah. I sometimes think that it's hilarious that I'm a publicist and in PR because I am such or I used to be such a control freak and PR, which is like a high powered industry really chilled me out. You're like could not control everything and I really had to take a back seat and learn how to surrender and let each pitch go whenever I sent it out.

Tara Newman: Yep. Yeah, I think that's great advice for people doing their own pitching too. Right? Like release it without any attachment of what's going to come, what's going to come back to it. And I think it's hard because with something like this is like you do have to be tenacious, you do have to persevere, you do have to follow up, but you can't do it with so much attachment, which I think is why it's so wise that if you can to outsource some of that because it just, it really releases that, that burden and that turmoil that people have around it.

Cher Hale: I think too, honestly a lot of control and attachment is released in how you frame your pitch. So I'm happy to share like a couple of my past pitches for people to see to help them understand like, you know, even though it's a pitch and you might really want to get the spot, here are the things that you can say to this person to help even you release attachment to it. Because you know there's beauty in the way that we frame that we choose our words when there's also a lot of relief in the words that we choose. And I find that pitching when used that way can be really be an art and like a almost like a spiritual journey for me.

Tara Newman: Yes. Yes. I'm really, I'm like totally digging what you're saying here and now I'm excited cause Cher's going to be sure, so I'm on Sabbatical in August and Cher's going to be taking over my mastermind for a session and I so want you to talk to them about this and give them these tools cause that is powerful.

Cher Hale: Absolutely. I love all things pitches and I love when pitches can give us like can help us improve our art, like mental state and our wellbeing and our businesses. It's like it's amazing what it can translate to.

Yeah, I think are, you're right, there's a lot of personal growth there as what I'm, I'm hearing you say. It's like someplace that's really hard to, it's hard to be there but then when you do it and you get used to it, then you kind of rip that bandaid off. It gets easier and easier. And that's when some growth happens. I love that. That's like why I do, every so often I get on this kick where I'm like I'm just going to do burpees every day because I hate them and I don't want them to have any power over me and I'll go like a week and I'll do burpees every day. And I'm like okay, they don't suck as bad and all those things cause like you just do it enough times where you can release that attachment that you have to it.

Cher Hale: That's how I am with hip thrusts. I feel you.

Tara Newman: Alright. I have a question about brave. Tell me. Okay. So what do you enjoy about being a member of The BRAVE Society?

Cher Hale: The people that I meet, I am obsessed on multiple levels with people that I meet in that group. I have found like, so India and I have like every monthly of a CEO Debrief together on a Thursday cause I don't work Fridays. And what happens in like the hour and a half is insane. It's like just the conclusions we come to the next steps that we like we've solidified, because they've been in our brains for too long instead of like on paper or in a forum. I find like, wow, that was the best hour and a half of my whole week because we spend time reflecting instead of working just working away and like hustling, which is what's so much a PR is right. But it's nice to have people who have the same value set as I do, um, who are in alignment at similar places in business to just debrief with and to understand like not only do I feel better about that, nothing alone in all of my crazy business challenges, but also that if I keep doing this, this could happen. And like there is some sense to the madness.

Tara Newman: Yeah. There are a lot of wonderful women in that group and I love watching everybody kind of pair off or triplet up or whatever it is that they're doing around finding their people and finding people to, if they can't make it to a debrief to debrief together. It's really been a joy to watch everybody navigate that space in their own way. And I love the intentionality that you bring to it and I love watching you build those relationships to use in various different ways in your life, in your business.

Cher Hale: Yeah. And I think too, you, you attract such a host of people for different industries. I mean there are, you know, a number of coaches, but there's also like Nicole Otchy who's a personal stylist and her business model is so aligned to mine as a publicist that we have always so much to discuss. And also I love her. She's amazing.

Tara Newman: Yeah. And she, um, I don't know if you, she put out some kind of crazy post on Instagram stories the other day, like basically having a very different opinion than of regular personal stylists and being here for transformation and not the transactional business. And I'm like, go girl. Right? Like that's just people doing business differently I think is what you, what you see in that group.

Cher Hale: Absolutely. It gives you space because you space to like choose another option instead of like the framework that everyone keeps saying that you need to be doing.

Tara Newman: Yes. I'm not a framework girl.

Cher Hale: Exactly. It's perfect, it's the ideal group for me. Really.

Tara Newman: Yeah. There's some things, some things require a framework and even a blueprint, like even for you, like I think like you don't like having a blueprint or a template for creating your own pitch, right? Like there's value in that, so you can take that and then make your own recipe out of what's given. But in terms of like how to build a business, it really has to be pretty authentic and unique to work for you.

Cher Hale: Yeah. I think the issue isn't the framework, but the flexibility of the framework, right?

Tara Newman: Yeah. Where can people find you?

Cher Hale: They can go to my website first. Actually we're rebranding right now, which is really fun and horrifying at the same time. And we have this cool new feature that'll drop soon. That's a directory for podcasts. So if you are wanting to pitch yourself the podcast, you can go on there but in like your industry that you want to attract or that thought is that you want to attract and it will have podcasts for you to pitch with notes and tips for pitching them. So just a really helpful way for you to connect with right people. That is such a smart idea coming from you because the one thing that is hands down, the best thing that you do is your podcast directory with your one sheets on the podcasters.

Tara Newman: So when you work with Cher, you're going on podcasts, she has a podcast one sheet that is very uptodate. I can't imagine the level of work or system that goes into creating this on her team's end, but it's a very up to date one sheet of the podcaster and their interest in previous episodes and what questions they like to be asked or what questions they ask. Yeah, it's amazing. So I can only imagine that that database is really helpful.

Cher Hale: Let's hope so. Let's hope that it is worth its weight. I believe it will be.

Tara Newman: I believe it will be. Thanks for coming on Cher.

Cher Hale: Thanks for having me.

Special thanks goes to Stacey Harris from Uncommonly More, who is the producer and editor of this podcast. Go check them out for all your Digital Marketing and Content Creation needs. 

Be sure to tune into the next episode to help you embrace your ambition and leave the grind behind. 

Important links to share:

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Tara Newman